Tag: Clinton Davis

Below is the text of the speech made by Clinton Davis, the then Under Secretary of State for Trade, in the House of Commons on 13 July 1978.

The hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley), in a brief period, has raised a number of headline points, but I suspect that he has not done much research. He referred in the first place to the desirability of implementing the merchant shipping Bill. In his peroration, he said that he disagreed with the legislation and had doubts about it. The Government have every intention, as is exemplified by the fact that we introduced a White Paper to which the merchant shipping Bill was annexed, of implementing the Bill.

It is to the discredit of the Opposition that their trade spokesman yesterday denounced the need for the Bill and said that a Conservative Government—if, by some mischance, they were elected—would not introduce that legislation. He was running completely counter to the wishes of the whole shipping industry—owners and trade unions alike—and counter to the interests of the countless people who have contributed to the working party reports on pilotage, discipline, the employment of Asian seafarers, and so on. That shows the degree of responsibility of the Opposition.
This is not a satisfactory opportunity for discussing the pros and cons of the Government’s actions over the “Eleni V”. The matter is being considered by a Select Committee, to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and I have given evidence.

I wish to rebut some of the hon. Gentleman’s general allegations. It is easy to throw out such allegations in an Adjournment debate—wholly irresponsibly, wholly disregarding the available evidence, and claiming that the Government are to blame. Others will be able to pass a more authoritative judgment than can the hon. Gentleman, whose judgments in the House can scarcely bear the scrutiny of being authoritative in general terms.

Mr. Adley

Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Davis

No. The hon. Gentleman has had his go. I cannot cover all the ground that he covered, and I do not propose to deal with matters affecting fisheries, but I or one of my colleagues will write to him on that.

Although I have been given only short notice, I shall try to deal with the specific points that the hon. Gentleman raised at the end of his speech. I agree that the primary emphasis must be on the prevention of pollution, and my worry about the hon. Gentleman’s proposals is that, in practice, they would have little regard to that consideration. We are determined that the United Kingdom should continue to play a leading role in the search for effective measures to reduce oil pollution from ships, but we must recognise that our coast may be polluted by vessels of any nation, not just by those trading with ​ Europe or ourselves. The problem can therefore be dealt with only on an international basis. If we are to avoid the anarchy of conflicting national requirements, that is the route that we have to travel. We have therefore directed our main efforts to action in IMCO, but there are no easy solutions. We need more dedication to resolve these problems through the international community than has been evident for a number of years.

There have been a number of important advances this year alone. In January, the 1969 amendments to the international convention on the prevention of pollution of the sea by oil, 1954 finally came into force internationally, and the amended convention lays down discharge standards which, if universally adopted, should substantially eliminate oil pollution as a result of routine ships’ operations. It is worth noting that the adoption of these standards was made possible by the development, largely at the initiative of our own oil industry, of the “load-on-top” system.

In February, agreement was reached at the IMCO conference on tanker safety and pollution prevention requiring all tankers of 10,000 gross tons and above to have two separately operable remote steering gear systems. All such ships will also have to be fitted with at least two independent radars. In addition, more frequent inspection of the equipment of all tankers will be required. All this should significantly improve safety. Furthermore, important agreements were reached to deal with operational oil pollution by adopting requirements for segregated balance tanks and crude oil washing.

Safety depends largely on the human factor. It is with that in mind that IMCO organised a conference in London on the training and certification of seafarers during June and this month. The conference led to the adoption of the first international convention on standards of training, certification and watchkeeping for seafarers. Following a proposal by the United Kingdom Government, the conference developed and incorporated in the convention regulations and recommendations dealing with the special training of masters, officers and ratings of oil, chemical and liquefied gas tankers, which we shall ratify at the earliest opportunity.

We are also in the final stages of a joint study with France on a system of movements reporting by certain vessels carrying dangerous cargoes in bulk as they pass through traffic separation schemes in the Channel. That will have to be subject to international agreement through IMCO.

Reaching agreements on conventions and protocols is one thing, but they have to be brought into effect. It is encouraging that IMCO has now agreed on establishing a number of target dates. That should expedite implementation.

We have already ratified the 1974 safety of life at sea convention. Last month the Government published a White Paper to which the merchant shipping bill was annexed. We propose to see that implemented as soon as possible so that we can ratify international requirements much more speedily. The hon. Gentleman and his party do not want the Bill to see the light of day.

The North Sea states memorandum of understanding is important, but the hon. Gentleman did not mention that. It is designed to exert control procedures over the standards of merchant ships visiting the ports of the countries concerned. It came into force on 1st July. It covers both safety conventions agreed under IMCO and a series of conventions dealing with crew matters agreed under the auspices of the ILO.

Much has been achieved, but I agree that much more remains to be done, especially in bringing agreements into operation and enforcing them. We shall play our full part in that process.

I know that the hon. Gentleman has been much concerned about the mechanical recovery of oil. We have relied on the use of dispersants in dealing with pollution at sea because so far that has been seen to be the only method proven to be generally reliable and effective in the often turbulent waters around our coasts. There are other methods. There are booms and mechanical recovery systems. Warren Springs laboratory has been evaluating the more promising items of recovery equipment over the past two years. It is developing a system of its own design for use in the open sea. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is showing encouraging results. I shall not deal with ​ the specific recovery method that he has mentioned.

I turn to the specific proposals that the hon. Gentleman made. I doubt whether I shall be able to complete my consideration of them this evening. He has taken the trouble to devise a charter. It is not my intention to pour cold water on the proposals. However, there is a danger of heightening expectations with ideas that in practice may be unworkable.

The hon. Gentleman has suggested unilateral action. Prima facie, that is attractive, but in practice I do not believe that it will work. What is more important, unilateral action would diminish the authority of IMCO. It would thereby diminish the ability of the international community to devise and enforce international legislation, which I believe is the only effective way of doing something about the problems that concern the hon. Gentleman. Ships not visiting our ports or those of the EEC but using the waters of the North Sea, the Atlantic and the English Channel would be unaffected by the proposals that he has put forward.

Mr. Adley

No, they would not be unaffected.

Mr. Davis

Further, some of the hon. Gentleman’s proposals interfere with the right of innocent passage. Has he considered the repercussions? Has he considered what effect it might have on our own vessels, which provide a livelihood for a substantial number of British seamen? That is a factor that I, as a Minister, have to take into account.

What would be the repercussions of the hon. Gentleman’s proposals on the rest of our industry? Surely we must gauge that too. His proposals ignore the situation of North Sea States that are not within the EEC.

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman’s proposals ignore the degree of international co-operation already existing, as exemplified by the North Sea States memorandum of understanding. It ignores the work that has been done through IMCO which is continuing and has had particular stimulus this year. It ignores the degree of Anglo-French co-operation, following “Amoco Cadiz”, which introduced positive proposals. It ignores the Bonn agreement among a number of ​ nations in Europe, providing for assistance in time of emergency and for the exchange of information. It ignores the degree of anti-pollution work that has already been undertaken, in particular through IMCO and the certification of training of seafarers’ conference—a monumentally important conference. It ignores the compensation provisions that exist and that would be improved by the coming into effect of the 1971 fund convention, expected shortly to come into effect. It ignores the fact that accidents occur to vessels when crews are already thought to be competent and whose certificates of competence would undoubtedly satisfy the hon. Gentleman’s requirements as set out in paragraph 6.

I submit that none of the proposals, save perhaps those in paragraph 6, which are indefinite in any event, has a direct bearing on accident avoidance. That is the factor that is uppermost in the minds of all responsible Governments and has been uppermost in their minds, as exemplified by the February, June and July conferences that have taken place through IMCO.

I concede that we have a great deal to learn. That is why the Government are engaged in their own internal stocktaking at the moment. That is why many organisations are deeply concerned to learn lessons from “Amoco Cadiz” and “Eleni V”. That is absolutely right. We do not have, and I doubt whether we shall have, complete answers to these problems. There is always room for improvement. If the Government have made mistakes, they will not be afraid of admitting them, because improvement is essential.

I believe that to reduce the authority of the organisation which, above all others, is able to introduce the international requirements, without which we ​ cannot take effective action and which would be the corollary of unilateral action, which the hon. Gentleman is at least in part advocating, would be a very dangerous step. It is one of the reasons why we urged the United States not to take unilateral action—a judgment which they accepted at the February conference of IMCO.

I believe that it is dangerous simply to talk in general terms, as the hon. Gentleman has done, although no doubt with the best intentions in the world. It heightens people’s expectations that there are ready solutions available. There are not ready solutions available. We have to work and to research carefully. We have to do this assiduously and in co-operation with the oil companies, the shipping industry and the trade unions concerned, because they have a valuable contribution to make in all these matters. It is not good enough, in my judgment, to make generalisations and, indeed, condemnations as the hon. Gentleman has done, unfortunately without adequate research.

The hon. Gentleman was right about insurance. I have a responsibility in that matter. I am concerned about the role of the oil companies in chartering ships. But I am not prepared to condemn them without giving them an opportunity to answer the allegations that are frequently and generally made. I said to the House not long ago that I was proposing to call the oil companies in for a discussion so that I could hear what they have to say—

[sitting suspended at this point]

Below is the text of the statement made by Clinton Davis, the then Under-Secretary of State for Trade, in the House of Commons on 8 May 1978.

The Greek tanker “Eleni V” and the French bulk carrier “Roseline” collided in fog at about 12.15 p.m. on Saturday 6th May, some eight ​ and a half miles east of Happisburgh and six miles off the coast of Norfolk.

I am glad to be able to inform the House that no lives were lost and that there were no serious injuries reported. The 39 crew members of the tanker were taken aboard the “Roseline” and have been taken to France.

The “Eleni V” was cut in two about one quarter of the way from its bows. The larger after section is under tow and is off the Hook of Holland, awaiting entry to Rotterdam. The smaller forward section tilted through rather more than 90 degrees, to leave the bows almost vertical with about 20 feet above and some 80 feet below water.

Given the condition of the forward section and in view of some deterioration in the weather outlook at about Sunday midday, it was decided to attempt to beach the forward section off Yarmouth, in a reasonably favourable position for further salvage operation.

Unfortunately, the forward section swung on touching the bottom this morning, and the tow line parted. The last report I have is that, after drifting south, the section is on Corton Sand, about three miles off Lowestoft. A Trinity House vessel and four tugs, including two equipped for spraying, are in attendance and are seeking to secure a line to that section.

The “Eleni V” was carrying some 16,800 tons of heavy fuel oil from Rotterdam to Grangemouth, including approximately 5,000 tons in the forward section.

My Department’s anti-pollution organisation was activated immediately after the collision. A helicopter reconnaissance on Saturday afternoon, in poor to moderate visibility, located only one oil patch of any size. Reconnaissance flights are continuing.

By midday on Sunday, eight spraying vessels were in operation off Yarmouth, with a naval vessel acting as on-scene commander, and succeeding in breaking up the patch into smaller slicks. Ten spraying vessels are there at present.
Some oil has come ashore this morning on 15 miles of coastline between Winterton and Lowestoft. At worst it is about 25 feet wide but in most places it ​ is in patches. The local authorities are satisfied that they are coping with this oil.

I am very conscious that the remaining oil on the forward section—perhaps 3,000 to 4,000 tons—represent a potential pollution risk. Our objective is to remove this threat of pollution as soon as this can practicably and safely be done.

The French authorities have put in hand an inquiry into the conduct of the master and crew of the French ship and it is also hoped to take evidence from the personnel of the Greek ship. I have only just been advised that the Greek authorities are proposing to undertake a public inquiry.

Below is the text of the statement made by Clinton Davis, the then Under-Secretary of State for Trade, in the House of Commons on 20 March 1978.

The “Amoco Cadiz”, an American-owned tanker registered in Liberia with a cargo of 223,000 tons of light Iranian and light Arabian crude oil, lost steering control on 16th March off Ushant. It was subsequently taken in tow by a tug, but the tow parted and the tanker drifted ashore on rocks late that night some three miles from Portsall on the North Britanny coast and about 90 miles from both the Lizard and the Channel Islands.

As soon as it was clear on the morning of 17th March that there would be coastal pollution, we offered assistance to the French authorities and subsequently to the Channel Islands. We also sent to the scene of the casualty a pollution expert from Warren Springs Laboratory and a coastguard inspector to establish personal liaison with the French authorities. I have maintained close contact with them over the weekend through my Department’s emergency operations room which has been manned throughout.

About half the cargo is thought to have spilled from the tanker, which broke in two on Friday, and the rocks and shallow water near the wreck make pumping out operations extremely difficult. There is heavy pollution on the North Brittany coast and this has spread south-west and north-east on the French side of the Channel. Yesterday evening we agreed to a French request to send five spraying vessels to deal with the pollution to the north-east of the wreck, thus providing some protection to the Channel Islands as well as to the French coast. Three of the vessels, to be accompanied by a naval frigate, are now in position, but there is a Force 8 wind, which will make spraying operations difficult.

These vessels are being supplemented as necessary in consultation with the French authorities. Other vessels and aircraft are ​ at readiness at Plymouth, though there is no immediate threat to our coasts.

I am sure the whole House will join me in expressing to the French authorities our profound concern and sympathy on the occurrence of this disaster, parallelled only in scale by the “Torrey Canyon” disaster 11 years ago. While the collaboration between our two Governments on Channel safety and anti-pollution measures is very close, I have made it clear that I should like to have an early meeting with my French opposite number to discuss all the lessons of this disaster.

Mr. Parkinson

Is the Minister aware that we join him in his expression of sympathy to the French authorities, and in particular to the people of Brittany whose fishermen and tourist industry may face a very bleak summer? May I also assure him that we welcome the Government’s decision to offer aid to the French Government?

Is the Minister satisfied that proper arrangements have been made to protect the Channel Islands and the West Country coastline? Does he agree that it was ironic in the extreme that this terrible accident took place on the eve of the first World Maritime Day? Does not this accident confirm the importance of the work of IMCO in seeking to raise international shipping standards? Does it not further underline the need to improve arrangements for shipping safety in the Channel?

Mr. Davis

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks about the declaration of sympathy for the French authorities and for the people of Brittany, who have been afflicted by this disaster. On the subject of the Channel Islands and the West Country, I must inform the hon. Gentleman that we are doing everything possible to ensure that the maximum degree of protection is afforded to both areas.

I think that it is perhaps a bitter irony that this disaster occurred on World Maritime Day, but whenever it happened it would have been a disaster. It underlines the need for international action through the United Nations international body that is responsible for maritime affairs. Although it is much too early to judge, there is some satisfaction to be derived from the fact that at the last IMCO conference on tanker safety and ​ pollution a consensus was reached about certain protections that should be afforded to the way in which tankers operate in future.

The hon. Gentleman asked me whether there is anything more that we can do. I believe that we have maximised the effort that we can undertake. The Royal Navy will participate to the full.

Mr. Prescott

My hon. Friend has noted the comparison that may be made between this incident and the “Torrey Canyon” affair. We are fortunate that there has been no loss of seafarers’ lives on this occasion, but will he recognise that yet again we are faced with the failure of a flag of convenience country to observe international conventions? That is why my hon. Friend should be addressing his attention to calling all European nations to come together to enforce regional agreements and to ensure that the standards and competence of the crews of such vessels are up to the standards that we enforce in this country.

Mr. Davis

There is to be an IMCO conference in June and July to deal with international standards of certification for seafarers to ensure that we achieve a higher standard of competence in future. That is warmly welcomed by the United Kingdom.

My hon. Friend should not expect me to answer the first part of his question. Obviously, there is bound to be an inquiry into this sad affair. It would be wrong of me to attempt to prejudge responsibility for the incident, which, of course, is bound to be a most difficult issue.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Is the Minister aware—I am sure he is—of the quite sickening effect that these continuing disasters are having on the populace in this country and throughout the world, as well as the sad effects on wildlife, which always suffer in vast numbers whenever there are oil slicks? Why is it that the United Kingdom still continues with the spraying of detergents and does not adopt the process of booms and skims that has been taken up by most countries throughout the rest of the world? Is the hon. Gentleman able to assure us that skims and booms will be available to protect Britain’s South Coast resorts? What is ​ happening about the pumping out of the remaining oil from the tanker?

Mr. Davis

With respect, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has applied his mind properly to these issues. It must be understood that we do not rely merely upon detergents. Indeed, we have a reluctance to use detergents. We have to adapt to meet different circumstances. The fact is that booms and skimmers would not operate in the prevailing conditions.

Mr. Stephen Ross

How do we know that?

Mr. Davis

Booms and skimmers would not operate off the French waters at present. There is a Force 8 gale. There has been a profound research study into booms and skimmers, which is nearly completed. I hope that the results will be published shortly. That does not mean that in the interim booms and skimmers are not available. The fact is that they are.

Mr. Norman Atkinson

My hon. Friend has referred to the international conference on tanker safety. Does he agree that the time has come when the maritime nations of the world can no longer accept the situation where good marine and ship design is sacrificed for the sake of transport economics? Does he agree that this disaster demonstrates that single-screw, single-steering gear ship designs of this sort, with crude tonnages of the sort involved in this disaster, are totally inadequate, and that Governments should now insist upon the sort of tanker design that would eliminate the vulnerability that this ship in distress demonstrated yet again? Will my hon. Friend consider the recommendations that have been made by marine engineers over the years for changing ship design in that direction?

Mr. Davis

I am not an expert on ship design. It would be presumptuous of me to make declarations about what is and what is not the right thing to do in the circumstances. There are international requirements dealing with steering gears. It would be wrong to convey a different impression. My hon. Friend is once again inviting me to make a comment that could easily have the effect of ​ prejudging an inquiry that is bound to take place.

Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I ask for briefer questions. This is the time not for arguing the case but for seeking information.

Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson

Is the Minister aware that at Fawley I have the largest oil refinery in Britain, which obviously creates much local concern? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that in the White Paper that was published after the “Torrey Canyon” report it was suggested that IMCO would look at the practice and law regarding these accidents? Will he tell the House what action was taken as a result of the meeting of IMCO after the “Torrey Canyon” report? Finally, does he agree that when ships are crippled in such a way as was the “Amoco Cadiz”, the vessel should be towed into deeper water, rather than brought ashore, until the emergency services have been properly alerted?

Mr. Davis

I am being asked for detailed information on what I think should have happened. I am not at liberty to make such comments. The hon. Gentleman should know that there have been many deliberations at IMCO on this and other matters affecting tanker safety and the safety of other vessels. IMCO has a good reputation among United Nations’ agencies in that regard. The real issue is not so much the resolutions, declarations or conventions that are made at IMCO as the will of nations to enforce them. There is not sufficient evidence of such will among a number of countries. I do not believe that the United Kingdom is among those countries.

Mr. Faulds

One sentence—does not this incident point up the Government’s wrong-headedness in opposing the separate bulkhead concept at the recent London conference?

Mr. Davies

One word—”No”.

Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop

Will the Minister try to persuade our partners in the EEC to set a date after which single-screw tankers will not be permitted within the territorial waters of any EEC country so that they do not lose directional stability when steering gears fail? Will he fix a date for that to take effect within United Kingdom territorial waters, irrespective of ​ whether there is agreement, so that avoidable hazards due to lack of steering may be put into the past? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a multi-screw craft is able to steer even without its rudder?

Mr. Davis

I shall consider that matter, but I am bound to say that sometimes we have to differentiate between human error and the availability of proper facilities on the vessels. However effective those facilities may be, we are always subject to the element of human error.

Mrs. Dunwoody

Is my hon. Friend aware that it does not matter how many resolutions are passed, because, unless the United Kingdom leads a campaign against tax havens where standards of safety are not maintained, we shall not have any protection from these accidents?

Mr. Davis

I am aware that the vessels of some flags of convenience countries have a bad safety record. I repeat that if I were to condemn this Liberian vessel merely because of that, it would be grossly unfair in advance of an inquiry.

Mr. Wiggin

Will the Minister confirm that all requests from the Channel Islands are being fulfilled and that equal priority will be given to them as if the mainland were affected? Will Britain assist to break up the slick even though it may be in international waters?

Mr. Davis

The answer to those questions is “Yes”. We are providing additional assistance today at the specific request of the Channel Islands to provide them with concentrates if they are needed.

Regarding operations in international waters, we have in practice carried out our obligations to our partners, the French, in that regard. We have every intention of doing so in future should another calamity of this kind take place.

Mr. Adley

Is it not disgraceful that international oil companies should be allowed to cut corners literally by sailing within two miles of coastlines, be they in Brittany or elsewhere, to save half-an-hour or an hour’s sailing time with the appalling risks paid for not by the oil companies but by the communities concerned when things go wrong? Will the Minister set his mind urgently to reaching agreement with the French that these oil tankers should stay 12 miles offshore other than at times when they are coming into and going out of harbour?

Referring to the point made by the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Mr. Ross), is it not also disgraceful that the oil companies should be the main manufacturers of the detergents which they sell at considerable profit after having caused the mess by allowing spills to take place?

Finally, dealing with the Warren Spring Laboratory, will the Minister look at the answer that was given to me after the “Urquiola” affair in May 1976, that

“Offshore trials have been planned and will be undertaken in the near future”

on international oil recovery equipment? These trials, two years later, have still not taken place.

Mr. Davis

The hon. Gentleman knows that there has to be a scientific assessment of these matters, and that takes time. I have already indicated, notwithstanding his exasperation, that the research is very nearly completed.

As for his taking up of Mr. Chirac’s suggestion—

Mr. Adley

It is not my suggestion.

Mr. Davis

I know that Mr. Chirac is waiting on every word from the hon. Gentleman. We must have regard to the fact that it would be difficult for tankers to remain 12 miles offshore when going through the Dover Straits.

Below is the text of the speech made by Clinton Davis, the then Under-Secretary of State for Trade, in the House of Commons on 10 March 1978.

The hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst) has spoken eloquently about his fears concerning the future of Stansted Airport, but he has failed to give any proper recognition to the considerable effort the Government have deployed to develop sensible and realistic policies which take account of the views of those most concerned with airport development. I heard no word of that in his speech. He has attributed designs to the Government that I reject as being no part of our policy. I hope I shall be able to give him some reassurance on this point.

As to a debate on the White Paper, I would certainly very much welcome that possibility, but the hon. Gentleman knows what the agenda of the House of Commons is before Easter. I do not have to remind him about that. With respect, that was rather a fruitless effort on his part, but if the Opposition feel as devotedly about it as he does, there is the opportunity of a Supply Day. I look forward to seeing whether the Opposition want to take advantage of that.

The White Paper on airports policy is the result of unprecedentedly extensive consultations. We started the process in 1975, when we published the consultative document “Airport Strategy for Great Britain”, which sets out in the greatest detail the major issues involved in planning airport development for the future—the need for additional capacity in the London area, the problem of aircraft ​ noise, the implications for the environment, for surface transport and for employment.

This was backed by an analysis or demand forecasts and by detailed supportive evidence on other technical matters. The Government’s intention was to lay the whole problem open to discussion and to involve all those concerned or affected by airport development in the policy-making process. In consequence of that, nearly 1,000 organisations and individuals contributed their views, and many took part in discussions—and in discussions with Ministers. It is from this thorough, painstaking, examination that the Government’s policy has emerged.

The Government never expected that its conclusions would be universally accepted. This is just not possible when there are so many conflicting views and interests. What we have sought to do, and I think succeeded in doing—I think this is generally accepted, despite the hon. Gentleman’s assertion—is to strike a balance and adopt a sensible, flexible approach to airport development. We have acknowledged that our conclusions, particularly as regards the London area, are based on demand forecasts which are inherently uncertain. Who could have forecast the changing developments which took place between 1970 and the present day?

The hon. Gentleman is inviting ms, in fact, to be more certain in my forecasting over the next 12 years. I cannot do that. But what we have undertaken to do is to keep these forecasts under constant review—another point that he failed to mention —and to lay the methodology of forecasting open to discussion, so that decisions about the future may be taken in full knowledge of the facts and of the uncertainties. I think that that is a particularly reasonable way of going about this matter. It involves open government in this area, and I should have thought that that would be welcome to the hon. Gentleman.

The White Paper is concerned with the 1980s. With regard to the longer term, the Government have undertaken to continue to consult consumers of air services, amenity groups, local authorities and others about the provision of capacity ​ beyond 1990. There is no question of taking decisions about the longer term by stealth. Any further development must be subject to full and wide-ranging consultations, as I have said on a number of occasions. That is clearly stated in the Government’s policy.

I visited Stansted on 13th February to discuss the White Paper with representatives of the various interests concerned. The hon. Gentleman was there. I invited him to attend my discussions. There was nothing furtive about it at all. He will know from his attendance that I totally rejected any suggestions that the Government have a ready-made solution and have already taken a decision to develop Stansted Airport or that there are any ineluctable development. I confirm to the House what I said to the people of Stansted.

As explained in the White Paper, the problem we have to face in the London area is the shortage of airport capacity in relation to the expected growth in demand. The forecasts suggest that demand will range between 66 million and 89 million passengers a year by 1990—as the hon. Gentleman said—compared with a throughput of about 33 million in 1977. However, we have grounds for believing that the top end of the forecast range is too high.

The hon. Gentleman asked me to say something about the methodology of the forecasts and the discussions that took place on the forecasting. There was the most careful consultation between the CAA and the BAA. There was also discussion with British Airways and British Caledonian. Although I cannot tell the House today what their present views about the forecasting may be, they are entitled to have their views. One has to channel those views through the machinery that we are proposing to set up. We see no reason for being tardy or for delaying the establishment of the machinery. We need to do that as rapidly as possible.

Capacity at the four main London Airports—Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton—will be close to 50 million passengers a year by the end of 1978 when existing development work at Gatwick and Heathrow will have been completed. This should be sufficient to meet demand during the early 1980s, provided that a better distribution of traffic can be achieved between the respective airports.

Beyond that, the White Paper provides for expansion of capacity at the existing airports up to 1990; a fourth terminal at Heathrow, raising capacity to 38 million subject, of course, to the results of the public inquiry but no fifth terminal; a second terminal at Gatwick, raising the capacity from 16 million to 25 million, but no second runway—it is the view of the BAA that there is no need for a second runway—and smaller improvements at Stansted and Luton to enable these airports to handle 4 million and 5 million passengers a year respectively.

The White Paper expressly rules out any further expansion at Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton, but a major expansion at Stansted remains a possibility in the longer term if demand continues to grow. But that stands alongside several other options.

It is this which has led to the hon. Gentleman’s unease, because he would like a ceiling to be set on the expansion of Stansted and he believes—wrongly, as I said earlier—that the decision has already been taken to expand Stansted to an airport on a similar scale to Gatwick.

Mr. Haselhurst rose—

Mr. Davis

I shall not give way because I have rather a lot to say. The developments I have described are all subject to the normal planning procedures and, as appropriate, to a public inquiry, as in the case of the fourth terminal at Heathrow. They would provide a total capacity of 72 million passengers a year at the London airports. We believe that this will be sufficient to accommodate demand up to 1990, depending on the outturn of traffic. As I said earlier, we intend to monitor demand very closely, and to improve our forecasting methods, in order to base longer-term decisions on more accurate data, and to avoid being tempted by costly and grandiose projects which could turn out to be white elephants, as I believe Maplin would most certainly have been.

Some would have preferred the Government to commit more than £1,000 million of taxpayers’ money to the building of the first stage of Maplin, with all the necessary road and rail connections. But, ​ as a responsible Government, we examined the proposition in great detail, in the light of the demand forecasts, and rejected this solution emphatically at the time.

The first stage of Maplin would have provided accommodation for 18 million passengers a year. But the proposals in the White Paper would provide the same level of passenger capacity at Gatwick, Stansted and Luton, at a cost of only £150 million. That is an important figure, an important difference. We believe that it is necessary, particularly in the light of current economic expectations, to continue to restrain public expenditure. We believe that that should be done in practice as well as in theory, although it is the theory which applies mostly to Opposition thinking.

Because of the uncertainty of demand forecasts and of the massive costs involved in airport development, we have decided to adopt a step-by-step approach to the provision of airport capacity. That means that we shall take the necessary decisions at the appropriate time.

As regards Stansted, I am only too well aware of the opposition of local amenity groups to any expansion whatsoever. I was told, when I went to Stansted, that the tom-toms of the natives were beating steadily. There are other views which have been put to me. As a Government we have to take a broad view and seek to balance the conflicting interests, taking a less jaundiced view of what the local interests are than some would have us take.

The aim of our strategy is to meet the expected growth in demand. There is no escaping the fact that 80 per cent, of all passengers using London airports have origins and destinations in the South-East. While the development of tourism in the region and the rationalisation of regional airport capacity should help to divert traffic from London in the longer term, it would be unrealistic to try to compel passengers to use airports remote from their homes or destinations. We have to face the fact that London airports will continue to bear most of the burden.

My right hon. Friend announced on 5th April 1977 that charter traffic would be banned from Heathrow starting on ​ 1st April this year and that the Government and the British Airports Authority would pursue a policy of transferring scheduled traffic to Gatwick, with a view to sharing the load more evenly between these two major airports. We have already made some progress in that direction, and Gatwick is rapidly developing into a major international airport.

Part of the Government’s policy, as outlined in the White Paper, is to concentrate short-haul charter traffic at Luton, and, over time, long-haul charter traffic at Stansted, which at present is grossly under-utilised, as the hon. Gentleman accepted.

The aircraft noise situation at Stansted is less adverse than that of any other London airport. Moreover, the policy on night jet restrictions will ensure that noise disturbance at night is kept to a minimum, as traffic there develops. I believe that Stansted must play its role in helping to meet the demand during the 1980s. It would be quite inequitable to expect that other airports, which already handle considerable volumes of traffic, and the large number of people living in their vicinity, should accept a greater share to spare the Stansted area.

With regard to the future, I want to make it clear again that the Government do not at present envisage the expansion of Stansted airport beyond a capacity of 4 million passengers a year. In the longer term, beyond 1990, there is likely to be a need for additional capacity in the London area, if demand continues to grow. With the increasing use of larger aircraft, this should not involve the construction of a massive four-runway airport, as envisaged in the earlier proposals for Stansted, Cublington, or Maplin, but a more modest solution. It is that which represents the difference in the parameters of thought between what I am saying and what the hon. Gentleman was seeking to stipulate.

The White Paper sets out the three possibilities, to which he referred. We are prepared to consider these three possible solutions and the other options which might be proposed for meeting the demand. We shall shortly be discussing with local authorities and others ​ concerned the setting up of a formal structure to advise on longer-term policies.

The Government have no preference for one solution over another. All of the options will be thoroughly examined before any decision is taken. We have given sufficient proof of our determination to continue the process of consultation which has worked well in the working out of the national airport strategy. Our intention now is to take the right decision at the right time.

The hon. Member has poured scorn on some of the propositions in the White Paper. I think that he has been less than fair. He is characteristically a very fair Member, but I understand that his thinking must to some extent be subjective.

There are obviously constituency interests which must impinge upon his consideration of these matters. I make no complaints about that. He is here, among other things, to defend his constituency interests. But what I want to establish quite clearly in this debate is that we have no intention of trying to ignore those constituency interests—of developing, as I have said, Stansted by stealth. That would be most unfair.

The hon. Member sought to intervene earlier. I have virtually completed what I want to say. In fairness, I let him intervene now.

Mr. Haselhurst

I am very grateful to the Minister. It was a question of the constructive intent of the Government rather than the deliberate intent, and if their forecasts are wrong the worry is that the inevitable consequence will be a further expansion at Stansted and that that is being made necessary by the strategy.

Mr. Davis

I understand the hon. Member’s concern, but we have neither an express nor an implicit design to go beyond what we have said in this debate or in the White Paper. I want to be absolutely fair to the people living around Stansted and working around Stansted. They have a right to be consulted. They will be consulted. Also, of course, the local authorities in the whole of the London area have a vested interest in ensuring that the development within the London area is sensible and pays heed to ​ the various conflicting interests that apply.